In a recent interview on the Venture Business Network, Cillian Bracken-Conway explained why so many business owners end up paying for digital marketing services that they can’t trust.
Cillian has over a decade of industry experience behind him, and he’s seen a lot of people call themselves a ‘marketer’ in that time. That can make things difficult for business owners. How do you know you’re going to see the results you’re looking for?
Speaking to Robert Fitzhugh, Cillian told listeners why it’s so important to go with an experienced agency like Vine Digital.
It’s just the way things are moving as well, I think COVID shone a light for a lot of businesses on the need to do things better online. Now, some of it was kind of like, seat of the pants, oh my god, we need to do something now with no kind of strategy or real thought behind it, but it did kind of shine a light for a lot of businesses that well, we have to have a decent online presence.
Rob Fitzhugh 0:32
Welcome back to the Venture Business podcast from the Venture Business Network. This podcast is aimed to provide useful information and experiences from Venture Business members with the sole purpose of helping SMEs and venture members get a better understanding of how people are running their businesses today. As always, I’m your host, Rob Fitzhugh, from Film Smart Pro. And this week, we chat with Cillian Bracken-Conway from Vine Digital. We chat about the creation of Vine Digital and the importance of SEO performed 365 days a year for your business.
I started working in an office 16 years ago, and I was kind of like the office manager. And we (were never) actually managing anybody or anything, and one day a Google Ads credit came in the door. It was when they used to post them. So it came in the door, and the business owner said, ‘Figure out what we can do with this’. And so I was tasked with figuring out what to do with it. And then it was a manufacturing company, and they used to have a student design their brochures. So they realized they have Photoshop. And when they realized they have Photoshop, they also realized they have a program called Dreamweaver which came with Photoshop, which is a website builder. So when they realized this, they said, ‘Hey, go learn Dreamweaver and build us a website so we don’t have to pay somebody for it.’ And so that’s kind of how it all started for me. That got me involved in websites, building websites, and mainly first pay-per-click advertising through Google Ads. But then as soon as I built a website, we realized that nobody’s coming to the website. So, how do we get people to the website? And that’s where the journey of learning where SEO came in. And I’ve been doing it ever since. So 15, 16 years, and it brought me to… brought me to Australia where I worked for agencies and clients by doing SEO and pay-per-click advertising for about 7-8 years until we moved back here two years ago. I set up Vine Digital, the Dublin Office of Vine Digital. Vine Digital is an Australian company, with an office in Australia, New Zealand, and now Dublin, and we’re digital marketing specialists focusing heavily on SEO (Search Engine Optimization) and pay-per-click advertising. And so I set it up the first week of COVID last year and in the same week I was finalising buying a house. So it’s a bit of a funny time to basically start a business and buy a house all at the same time. So that brings me on to where we are today, really.
Rob Fitzhugh 3:01
So, one observation. That brochure company you worked for 15 years ago sounds like they were flying on the seat of their pants. They’re like, ‘Oh wow, we have this, and we can make websites.’ And they’re like, ‘Oh well, we’ll do that then.’ Are they still in business, do you know? Or they…
Well, they were a manufacturer…
Rob Fitzhugh 3:15
They produced their own brochures for their products…
Rob Fitzhugh 3:18
Oh, okay. So… they just seem like they were kind of ‘Mister Bean-ing’ their way through the business world, they’d go, ‘Oh, what’s this? You figure that out. We’ll see what happens. Ehm, what’s a website?’ So that’s great. And did you travel to Australia specifically for work or was it that you just, you know, ‘I’m outta here…’ and then you gravitated towards something ???…
It was 2010-2011. So yeah, I think when exactly rolling in Ireland, yeah. And so when to go traveling initially, me and my now wife, girlfriend then. We went to the Rugby World Cup 2011 in New Zealand. And we followed Ireland around and stayed in New Zealand for three months. And the plan was to go to Australia for a one-year visa, maybe a two-year visa, which was available. And we ended up staying, I ended up getting sponsored by a company and ended up staying for nearly 8 years. And we’re Australian citizens. But we moved back here.
Rob Fitzhugh 4:11
Yes, great. Very lucky. Got sponsored, I didn’t get sponsored. But then again, I didn’t really look for it. But I wish I have had of, because I probably would have stayed. But and so, you did you go straight into then working in Australia in the same sort of industry? I mean, I assume, it’s funny, I talked to a lot of people, industry professionals and things like that. And their story is not somewhat unsimilar to yours, in the sense that they get asked to do something, and then they figure it out then it opens a door for them to figure out a lot of other stuff, do you know what I mean? Even the industry I’m in, it’s a lot like that. Like somebody asked me to figure something out with video and then from there, I was like, ‘Well, I can do this and I can do it for cheaper and we’ll do it this way’. But it’s just interesting that kind of trial by fire and learning as you go and I’d imagine 15 years ago website design, website and SEO and all that sort of stuff was a dark arts that nobody could wrap their head around. Get the young lad to do it.
So that was exactly it and we can do it for free, you know, that kind of shortsightedness, like we are paying him, so it’s not free. But yeah, from their point of view, we might as well have been free, even if it took me six months when they could have paid someone to do it within two days, probably at the time.
I can see I’m looking at good job advertisements that pop up all the time. And I can see people advertising for video content producers is the title, but they’re paying them like pittance.
And it happens in our industry as well. It’s on Twitter, especially in our industry, it’s kind of like a constant joke, people put up job listings that they’ve seen where it’s they list that where it should be really good at social media, they should be really good at graphic design, they should be able to build websites, they should be able to do SEO, they should be able to do pay-per-click advertising, should be generally good at marketing and they should have 4 or 5 years experience, but it’s like an entry level position.
Rob Fitzhugh 5:49
Yeah, it’s mental. And because you know, they’re thinking in their head, they’re probably saying, well, a young person can probably do graphic design, and a young person probably knows their way around a website. But it is nonsense, and like I’m forever seeing stuff come in, and they’re given them these fancy titles and I think I was like 10 years ago, if I went for a video production job, I’ll be getting big money as a video producer for business and they’re basically just taken, you know, content, social media content creator and giving it a fancy title and thing for pittance, but it’s just an interesting world we live in. In terms of deciding to come back here and setup and setting up Vine Digital, obviously, you undertook the mammoth task of doing that and buying house at the same time. So fair play to you, if you can do that you can do anything. But how have you found a) the transition back over here and b) kind of getting a business off the ground during the pandemic?
Yeah, it’s a bit of a weird time, because I had anticipated, you know starting business, being out and about a lot like trying to meet people going to networking events we had planned on being up in like one of the digital hubs up in Dublin, or maybe multiple and kind of making your presence felt around those kind of places, but that obviously hasn’t panned out. So a lot of networking has been, you know, online via zoom, which has been okay. But it’s not the same as meeting people. And having that kind of quick chat, when there’s 20 people in a room, you can just kind of five minutes with somebody here five minutes somebody else there. So it’s been okay, it’s been, it’s been lonely enough, because I’m here by myself, essentially, like I do work with a team and kind of a spread, the team spread across the globe, but mainly Australia. So you have that interaction, but again, not the same as in person. So you’ve definitely missed that in-person interaction with other business owners and in our business or industry, especially, it’s about trust and building up relationships, because a lot of people think it’s a bit of a dark art, SEO, and there’s a lot of people out there, you know, anyone with a laptop calls themselves a digital marketer, which can make it very difficult to cut through and kind of show people actually no, look, we have a lot of experience in doing this, we are doing it a long time, we work with big brands, so, it’s not a dark art. But that takes time to kind of talk to people and to show them that, it’s not, you can’t just, you know, send them an email, like a cold email. And funnily enough, from SEO perspective, SEO doesn’t bring SEO companies very good leads as it turns out.
Rob Fitzhugh 8:06
Why is that?
I think it’s the type of people who are Googling our services are generally, it seems to be a lot of people who are have ideas and are going to like, ‘Oh, I’m going to set up this website’, when they when they start looking into setting up a website, they start hearing about SEO, and they start looking for people to do it that way. So it’s not that we never got leads through it, but the type of leads are very, very low quality. So it’s really even in Australia, our main lead generation was always networking and training, you know, setting up seminars and webinars and things like that, teaching people about SEO that, you know, like it’s not a dark art. It’s just hard.
Rob Fitzhugh 8:46
Yeah. It’s just, which is why you need us. And it’s funny actually, you just, you’re talking about cold-calling leads stuff like that, my trash spam folder is littered with people sending emails saying, ‘I noticed your website, we can help you’. I’m thinking, does that work? I don’t know who you are. Like, it must have some traction if it works that way. But..
Well we get them as well.
Rob Fitzhugh 9:08
Well, yeah, it’s yeah, you’re… Really? Okay. Yeah, they they’re casting a pretty wide net here, stranger from a foreign land, who’s going to fix all my problems. But it’s funny, I would imagine for most businesses, and I find even my networking and kind of meeting people face to face is what really kind of helps solidify yourself. And I’m just using that in comparison to the emails I get my spam folder, which are all very kind of I can help you but I don’t know who you are. I don’t know what your track record is; So I don’t know why I take a punt on you, especially if it’s something I don’t understand, like SEO, and which I moderately understand and we were having a conversation before this and I was like, “Oh, I should redo that and where do we do that?” Because you know I’m doing things, I’m creating content for people and you know, when it comes to YouTube, yeah, alright. But when it comes to other stuff, I’m maybe there’s more I could be doing to help optimize SEO. And I didn’t know that until I spoke to you. Well, I kind of sorta knew it. But you explained to me very clearly why I should do it. And I was like, alright, I should probably do it. But I mean, I suppose the long story short is that it’s something that needs to be worked on, would you say 24/7? Or is it you know, oh, hey, you’ve done my SEO. Thanks. I’ll talk to you later.
No, it’s it is a long term thing. Mainly because things change, Google’s algorithm changes officially four times a year, they have quarterly rollouts. And they sometimes if it’s really big, they’ll tell us roughly what it covers. But in general, it doesn’t. And the way the industry figures that out is by the impact on various industries. So an update will roll out, and the industry will kind of feed itself information. So we’ll look we know that these industries in particular have been affected. So we can kind of deduce that the update was about this type of search results or this type of content. So like I said, happens every quarter. So things just happen all the time. And even with the best of intentions, you can be as, in the industry is called a white hat or black hat and black hat is going explicitly against Google’s guidelines as to how to improve your SEO, whereas, White Hat is doing explicitly what Google tells you or the guidelines that they set at least. And even just doing white hat SEO doesn’t protect you from an update affecting you, cause there’s no way around it. It may affect you, it may not. Google may make a sweeping change about how they rank certain content and that might affect you, and it’s just the way it is. So keeping on top of that is kind of constant and because the industry changes so much as well, you’re constantly having to keep up to date with what’s happening and what’s changing, and what’s working and what’s not working. And because Google is kind of a black box, Google don’t explicitly tell us how to prove your SEO. They kind of set you up with a guideline and say there’s about 200 factors that go into it. But those factors change, you know, massively, depending on the industry you’re in, and the type of business you are, and so on. So why you rank for, you know, film production, the factors that go into that will be completely different as to why our business might rank for SEO company.
Rob Fitzhugh 12:09
Yeah, it’s funny. Do they… just a quick question. Do they make this needlessly complicated? Or is it that it’s just owned and operated and implemented by people who understand it and has there’s expectation that the rest of the world should get it as well?
Google’s whole thing is that they want to serve the best possible result, you know. Their stated aim and mission is, is to provide the best possible answer to the person who’s Googling, so that they find it in the shortest amount of time, whether that’s an ad, or whether that’s through organic purposes. So that’s the end in which they’re, they do this is that “Well, you’re number one, because we think this best answers the query that somebody just had”. And the factors that go into that, like I said, change completely, depending on the industry that you’re in, and the type of search it is. So there’s different intent around searches. So if you searched for Facebook, it means it’s a navigational query, you’re trying to get to Facebook, easy. Then there’s informational queries, you know, like how to do something, how do I do this, you’re looking for information. And then there’s transactional queries, which is you’re trying to buy something. So it’s, you know, the best microphones, you know, for podcasting might be a transactional type query. So again, that’s kind of three or four ways you can kind of slice up what a search query might look like, and why somebody might rank and why somebody else might not might rank. And then you can extrapolate that out onto different industries and different businesses. And then that’s how it becomes so complicated.
Rob Fitzhugh 13:39
Straightaway, about halfway through that sentence. I was like, I need to hire Cillian to do this stuff for me, because my brain is turned to mush. It’s the same way I feel about Facebook ad manager where I don’t I mean, it’s got a little bit easier. But Facebook ad manager for a tool designed to get you to spend money on Facebook just always seems needlessly complicated. I was like, I want to buy something from you, Facebook. Why are you making me solve this riddle?
I think it wants you to give up, I think they want you to give up. Just take your money and leave me alone.
Rob Fitzhugh 14:02
Yeah, yeah, yeah, just but like I was like, I’m trying to buy it’s so so weird. It’s like if I went into a shop to buy something, and they were like, ‘Yeah, but answer me this riddle.’ And I was like, what I just want to give you money. Why are you making it so difficult? But, so it’s basically a moving target constantly that needs to be constantly updated and worked on and figured out.
We get you ranking your website ranking number one for film production. That doesn’t stop your competitors doing something. So you suddenly start out-ranking them, they might go, “well, what can we do to try to get back to number one”. So they might, they might produce new content, they might change a structure of their homepage, they might start building links to it to try and get ahead of you again. So nothing ever stays the same. So you’re kind of fighting Google’s updates plus what your competitors are doing. Plus, then there can be fluctuations in search volume during COVID search volume for certain things has disappeared. Right? So nobody was was searching for their local shop down the road because it was closed. So that search volume is gone, it’s disappeared, it does not exist anymore until it actually comes back. So you’re kind of fighting all these things constantly. And sometimes it’s the opposite. Sometimes a new trend appears or a new kind of search appears that wasn’t there before. So you need to be aware of see if you can capitalize on for your client.
Rob Fitzhugh 15:25
Luckily, I’m just that type of person that like, you know, when I was a kid, I just procrastinated all the time. Yeah, being in an industry that constantly changes. It suits me perfectly.
Rob Fitzhugh 15:37
Yeah, well, I procrastinated well into my early 30s, and then suddenly, I came alive. And now even, even just as an anecdote, even yesterday, my partner was trying to get me to listen to a podcast. And I couldn’t concentrate on it, unless I put the football on and turned the volume down. And she’s like, why I was like, Well, now I have somewhere to focus my eyes. So my ears will listen to I got I couldn’t listen, because I was just like, what am I looking at? I’m bored, I’m sitting in the room. So I need constant stimulation and constant moving of stuff, which is probably going to some psychological issues needs to be sorted in the long run. But in terms of SEO adoption and Ireland, and we had a conversation before offline, about Irish businesses, and maybe our approach to business? And do you think that maybe we’re still grappling with the concepts of constantly moving SEO here in Ireland?
Yeah, I think we spoke about my experience in Australia with Australian business owners, regardless of demographic, tended to be a lot more willing to try things. And so they were they were willing to try things if they thought there might be some return on it. Whereas in Ireland, there seems to be a lot more rigid in terms of, you know, well, “I don’t know what it is, and even if you can try to explain it to me, I don’t know what it is, I’m not gonna go there because I don’t understand it properly and I’m not convinced there’s going to be return”. And the reality is, I can’t guarantee a return.
Rob Fitzhugh 17:03
You know, I can show you results from other clients and things like that, which is absolutely, there is no guarantee, unfortunately, so I found Irish businesses a lot more unwilling to take that risk, and it could be demographic, I think we discussed like, a lot of the people I’m speaking to are maybe 45 and older. So like, I seen a lot of coffee shops and things, you know, we’ve all seen coffee shops spring up and the younger people starting businesses seem to be very aware of the need to do certain things. Like, if it makes sense to they’ll be all over social media, if it makes sense, they’ll be doing SEO because they know it works. And they’re more willing to find out if it works. Whereas the slightly older demographic don’t seem to be quite as willing to try. And I can understand, we’ve been through two recessions probably, a lot of business owners. Whereas, to be fair, in Australia, they haven’t officially had a recession since the early 80s or something. So a lot of people just never have started a business and have never experienced a downturn. So it’s probably easier to be in a position to say, “Okay, well, let’s try it because, nothing bad has ever happened”.
Rob Fitzhugh 17:35
It’s a rocket that’s still going up. Yeah, I’m in the same. I remember, well before Venture I joined a networking group. And they were lovely, lovely people. And but they I stood up and I explained what I did. And I mean, I was surrounded by people who’d operated on handshakes and done a lot of their marketing through you know, they didn’t see a purpose for me. I didn’t exist. They’d done business for 40 years, and they didn’t need any of the type of stuff that I was selling. And you could see and I was like, well, fair enough. And the the irony was not the irony. But the thing I have is that for what I do, younger people are more savvy with it and understand it. Like you’re saying, you understand what needs to be done, then you understand what needs to happen. It’s the people, even myself included who wouldn’t be digital natives. I mean, I was I mobile phones, I didn’t have a mobile phone till I was 14, do you know what I mean? And YouTube only came out when I was in college, So like, it’s that I they’re the demographic of people who probably need me the most, but they’re also the demographic who have kind of like I’ve got away with it for this long do I need to do it, I don’t have to do it. I don’t want to be on camera. I don’t want to be this, and I don’t want to be that. And so it’s a strange one. But I mean, I suppose what do you reckon over time, we’ll eventually catch up with that Australian mentality, or we just get keep hammered with recessions? And we’ll just be like, No, not doing it.
Hopefully, we won’t be hammered with recessions. I think like needs must. So I think things will naturally change and people will start realizing that Well, my competitor is doing so much better than me. Why might that be? And you know, I think eventually they’ll come around and I think there’s more of us as well. There’s more of these kind of digital natives. You know, we’re not quite digital natives and entering the workforce and into higher up positions within companies. So I think it is gonna change over time, I think it naturally will just change. And it’s just the way things are moving as well, I think COVID shone a light on for a lot of businesses on the need to do things better online. Now some of it was kind of like, see that a pan still, it was like, Oh my God, we need to do something now, with no kind of strategy or real thought behind. But it did kind of shine a light for a lot of business that well we have to have a decent online presence.
Rob Fitzhugh 20:28
Yeah, I mean, as a small business owner a lot, and I know a lot of it, sometimes you need that kick in the arse to be like, Well, I have to do all this stuff, I have to do this. And I mean, I just it’s so funny, like the lack of the first lockdown the amount of free things that were available when people were doing free classes free whatever. And by the second and third, when people are like, No, I’m not doing it anymore. And, I didn’t even do and people are like God, you should do, you should do an online course. And I was like, in my head, I was like, I could, but then I’d be competing with YouTube. And I was like there’s a lot, it’s a lot of effort and a lot of time to put into create that. So I have to go back and think about that and say, do you know, maybe there’s a smaller free thing I can use. But really, I think the value is in direct customer interaction. And, like direct customer service, as opposed to kind of automating for me, for someone like me, I got to be fair to people, But… this sort of venue allows me to facilitate that a lot more allows me to talk to a lot more people. And then I would have been able to before and which means I’m allowed to have more touch points with with clients and things like that. But you know, would, I have done this beforehand, no, but now I have to so now I’m laying down that railway track as I move forward, underneath the train, which is probably not the best way to go. But then that’s when you realize you need someone like yourself to come in and take over certain aspects of it. It’s only when you understand it, or have a vague understanding of the value it has for you, then you understand the importance of it. And then you understand the importance of offloading that to somebody else if you can’t do it yourself. I have a quick question, actually, just in regards to specific website platforms and SEO. I had a friend, he’s probably dead right? I have a friend who works you understand SEO, he does he work something related to it. And he was always telling me that that Wix sites are grand to get you started. But they’re brutal for SEO. Is that true? Or this was about two years ago, he said it to me. So I don’t know if it’s changed? Is there different platforms that are better or worse?
Not necessarily. So a lot of a lot of entry level, SEOs will say that they love WordPress, and that, you know, we only want to work with WordPress. And the only reason that is because it’s much easier to change you want. And it’s much easier to make kind of the popular changes that you see all over the web when it comes to SEO, which is like why you should be changing your page title to this and your your heading 1 should be this. And WordPress is much easier to make those changes. And on Wix, it can be a little bit harder to make kind of under the hood structural changes. So you might have a Wix website, and it’s you know, abc.com/video editing. And you might want to add in another subfolder, /packages, and then all of a sudden, we’re like, oh, actually, I want to go back and change that film production in the in the URL. And it might not be possible, right? So sometimes SEO’s to get hung up on these little tiny semantic things and say, Oh, well, it won’t let me change this exact things, or I’m not gonna be able to do SEO on it when it’s just not really true. The reality is, like 60% of the web, I think at this point is probably WordPress. So does a natural leaning from SEO is, you know, in the industry with most and work on WordPress sites that it’s easier to work with WordPress, but, you know, one reason it can be harder to rank a Wix site, just because a lot of the people who use Wix initially are generally smaller businesses in smaller niches. So it’s just hard to rank, right? Because if, if you’re in a really niche, B2B, or whatever it is, you set up a Wix website. First of all, it takes that these kind of if you set up a brand new website on a brand new domain, it’s gonna take you at least a year to get any sort of traction, SEO wise, like to rank for anything really. That’s not Wix’s fault. This is because you’re brand new website.
Rob Fitzhugh 24:09
I suppose you could speed that up if you had your link embedded on different websites on whatever like RTE or like I have, I have a Wix site and I built a WordPress one. Now the WordPress one isn’t finished yet. But it’s live but it’s brutal. But then again, you know, I switched to WordPress, and I had somebody work on it and I got a job. Like I’m beforehand with my old WIX site, I was all referrals. I got a job, somebody Googled me and found me and hired me and the website wasn’t even finished yet, which is probably a glowing testament to the person who built the website and did the kind of background stuff for me, but and I a Wix site as well. And it looks like to grand the Wix site serves a purpose. It’s you know, it’s a niche business. But what I would say about SEO on the WIX site is they do go out of their way to make it very simple to follow. So to give you that kind of checklist, you can go through that but the reason I went to WordPress site is because I feel quite limited in what I can do, I can follow their checklist, and they’ll tell me it’s 100%. And I’m like, great, but I don’t really understand what that means. And I’d like to be able to go in and fine tune stuff a little bit more. And as you’re saying, near 60% of the internet leads towards WordPress, so I’d be like, well I might as well not swimming against the current. But I have both.
To be fair, or a couple years ago, Wix, this is really technical. Wix was generated dynamically, so the pages were generated after you arrive at the website. And when that’s the case it can be hard for Google to understand what a page is about, because technically, it doesn’t exist until the user arrives. And traditionally, that was very hard for Google to understand. But now they understand now WIX have actually moved away from that model. You know, it’s a slightly different model now. So Google can understand those pages. So to be fair to your friend up intil a few years ago, it might have been quite explicitly true that just don’t use Wix because Google is literally can’t understand the pages.
Rob Fitzhugh 26:03
I think that’s what he said to me is pretty much along those lines. And I was like, Oh, no, and then But anyway, as I said, I have two businesses, one for my main business and then one for this extra thing that is more of a hobby that, you know, turns out a small income. So I’m not really that concerned about it. And people find my website, I rely on other platforms and other things. So the website just exists. So people can go in and be like, okay, it’s not a scam. Yeah, it’s not a scam. And I don’t really add that much to it. And, you know, and I probably should do a bit more Actually, I did. I’ve been adding stuff to it. Generally but, I’m not really dependent on it, basically. But anyway, and in terms of moving forward for you, and I assume you’re happy to be back in Ireland, and you are liking the challenge of growing a business. I hope your answer is yes. If not, then we need. If you’re going to start crying going. No, I made a massive mistake. But no, I mean, you’re happy to be back and you’re happy with the challenge?
Yeah, yeah, I’m glad things are opening up. And hopefully, I say this now I’m probably going to regret it. Hopefully, we can get back to meeting people in person. And I might regret that because then it’ll be like an hour to get to an event and an hour to get home.
Rob Fitzhugh 27:22
Well, then you really have to decide who you’re meeting, I suppose. And that’s exactly pick your battles, which is something that I would have never done before. But like, yeah, sure, I’ll drive up to Dublin for a chat, and like, what took me three hours. But yeah, I know what you mean it there is that element of it. And but the good thing I assume is that people will be hungrier for your product, because they’ll have been so dependent on their website, and so dependent on all those elements for the last year that they’ll need to fine tune.
Yeah, like what we’re experiencing now over the last couple months is that a huge amount of people who over COVID, realized that we need to be able to sell online? How do we do that? So while we didn’t really get involved in that, kind of from a website building point of view, we’ve noticed a lot of people have built, you know, new platforms or new functionality where they are selling online. And they did it. And then they realized all of a sudden that, well, where’s the traffic like we are building this functionality, and now we can sell online. But we’re not selling online. So we’re noticing that a lot of people who did that during COVID, are now starting to realize there’s more to it than just building it. And that’s the next step, which is how do we get relevant traffic to my website continuously?
Rob Fitzhugh 28:38
Well, that was Cillian. If you want to find out more about Cillian and Vine Digital head over to www.vinedigital.ie. You are listening to the Venture Talks podcast from the Venture Business Network. You can subscribe to this podcast from wherever you listen to your podcasts. To find out more about the network itself, head over to www.venturenetwork.ie. If you would like your business featured on the podcast, email me directly at email@example.com. Until next time, I’m Rob Fitzhugh, stay safe and stay connected.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai